We're back with a new episode! This time, we talk about careers in Bitcoin. Or more specifically: what to do if you've outgrown the fiat mindset and are ready to exit your fiat career. What kind of jobs are there in the Bitcoin space, and how can you find one that works for you? Because really, you don't need to be a genius to work in Bitcoin (I mean, look at us).
We're back with another episode of the SatoSHE Show! Unfortunately, Mir ditched us for Mexico this week. But it's her loss, because we had a great conversation with fellow Bitcoin podcaster Anita Posch, our first guest on the show!
Anita is a solopreneur focused on educating her audience about Bitcoin. She just published her book (L)Earn Bitcoin, a book perfect for those looking to get into Bitcoin who just aren't quite sure where to start (which was pretty much all of us at some point). In this episode, we talk to Anita about her journey into Bitcoin, her jump into self-employment, her passion for the space, and of course, her new book. Check it out!
Lina Seiche (0:09):
Hi, Molly! Welcome to episode three of the SatoSHE show.
Molly Spiers (0:14):
Oh my gosh, episode three. I can't believe we've made it this far.
Lina Seiche (0:18):
Me neither. We are so disciplined.
Molly Spiers (0:20):
I mean, yeah. I mean, me and you have made this far but Mir clearly hasn’t.
Lina Seiche (0:28):
Yeah. It’s okay, we'll replace her with somebody new.
Molly Spiers (0:35):
Where is Mir anyway?
Lina Seiche (0:37):
I think she's in Mexico.
Molly Spiers (0:39):
Yeah, she is at an event, isn't she? But I can't remember what it's called, something, something Bitcoin, anyway.
Lina Seiche (0:45):
Molly Spiers (0:46):
Yes. She'll be back. Don't worry.
Lina Seiche (0:49):
Yeah. So we thought while Mir is away, we'll just continue doing this ourselves. And we're going to have a guest on. We mentioned we would have guests on the show and somebody actually wanted to join the show. And we feel extremely excited. And also a little bit anxious because she's a podcaster, too. And we want to make a good impression. And I also feel extra bad because, as you know, before we launched our show, we thought of our tagline. And we made our tagline. The first all female Bitcoin only show. And we thought that's true. And then remember how I said, Hey, why not have this guest on? She's a fellow podcaster. And she just published a book. And we thought, Wow, that's really good. And then we asked her, but we didn't bother to think about the fact that her podcast is all female, Bitcoin only and a lot older than ours. So welcome, Anita Posch, and I'm very sorry.
Anita Posch (2:05):
Hello, no need to apologize. Hello, Lina. Hello, Molly. Thanks for having me on.
Molly Spiers (2:10):
Anita Posch (2:11):
It's a great honor to be here and be your first guest. When I heard you saying that you're the first all female Bitcoin only podcast, I mean, it's just me. I'm the female podcast host. I started in 2018. But I of course have male guests. So basically, I'm not sure if you're going to have male guests, but from the host side, yes. I think I'm the first, maybe somebody else also was before me. I know Stephanie Murphy from the ”Let's Talk Bitcoin” podcast, but she's not the main host. She's one of the four I think. But maybe I also don't know something. But now my tagline is “first Bitcoin only podcast”.
LIna Seiche (3:04):
That’s okay, you can have it.
Anita Posch (3:07):
If you can't have it, I can take it.
Lina Seiche (3:12):
Yeah, I can't believe that we looked around, and we thought about this. And we invited you and we didn't think about the tagline. But now our tagline is “the all female Bitcoin only”.
Anita Posch (3:26):
I thought since you did the research already. I can take the tagline now.
Lina Seiche (3:32):
Yes. I'm not sure if you can trust my research, given that it was incorrect.
Molly Spiers (3:39):
Yeah, someone else had probably come up and been like, “No, I'm the first all female hosted podcast.” We'll just go around in a big circle.
Anita Posch (3:47):
Exactly. But then we have learned something again.
Molly Spiers (3:51):
Anyway, isn't it great that there were so many females in Bitcoin that are doing podcasts? Yay!
Anita Posch (3:54):
Yeah, there are more and more coming up. And I think that's really awesome. And great.
Lina Seiche (4:03):
We felt that a lot of, you know, female, or podcasts that involve female hosts sign up Bitcoin only. So that's actually why we launched this podcast. And, you know, to each their own, but we only want to talk about Bitcoin, like you as we suppose.
Anita Posch (4:19):
Exactly, exactly. I think it's enough to talk about Bitcoin only because there are enough things happening that you can cover and there are more and more stories each year. I mean, I can't compare this now. I mean, you were back there at the same time, like even longer than me, like in 2017 when I started you could really follow the development you know, you thought “I'm not missing anything of it”, but now it's growing immensely.
Lina Seiche (4:53):
It is, it is. So you've been around since 2018?
Anita Posch (4:58):
2017. In 2018, I started the podcast exactly in August so it's been three years now. Yay!
Lina Seiche and Molly Spiers (5:05):
Molly Spiers (5:07)
Lina Seiche (5:11)
Wow, what led you to what led you to Bitcoin? How did you find Bitcoin in 2017?
Anita Posch (5:18):
Yeah, well, I actually studied urban planning. And when I finished my studies in 1997. The internet came to Austria. So I had my first email setup in 1997. And I got immensely interested in the internet and these new forms of communication that are possible, and I bought my first HTML book and built my first website. And from then on, I switched careers basically, and was working as a web designer, I did large e-Commerce projects. And we also, when I was self employed, I had a partner and we had a company together. And we did online platforms, like online marketplaces, or something similar to Etsy, but a lot smaller, of course, for design for sustainable designer goods, and things like that. And in 2016, I thought to myself, because at that time, I was employed in a bigger ecommerce company. And I thought to myself, actually, I want to be self employed again, and I want to do something new, I was looking for a field that really is interesting to me where I can, like, also contribute to to the greater good in a way, you know, because like, all those consumer goods stuff, I mean, I was selling motorcycles, and on the other company, goods for gardening, you know, and I thought to myself, that's not really what I'm interested in anymore, there must be something bigger, where I can contribute to. And then I decided to take a year off, like, I went to Berlin. And yeah, I was scouting my next topic of interest, where I also want to work in the field. And funnily enough 2016 in Berlin, there was already the Bitcoin bar. So now the first Bitcoin bar in the world where you could buy beer and burgers with Bitcoin, but I didn't realize it back then, you know, so I heard the first time about Bitcoin in 2011. So I tweeted about Bitcoin back then. But I thought it was something like PayPal, and I thought to myself, I don't need another PayPal, so I really didn't get it. And so in 2017, I got back to Ghana and settled back in here and fought, okay, so now I'm going to work as a web designer and intern, online marketer and things like that. And then in spring 2017, I visited a talk at a conference by Sherman Foshan and she was talking about Bitcoin and blockchains, and how they will impact the world. And I immediately understood the possibilities and how big this is, you know, how revolutionary it was, for me, like, the beginning of the internet. And from then on, I decided, that's interesting. I want to work in that field. That's something that I as a solopreneur can do, because it was clear to me I don't want to find a startup company or something like that. I wanted to work alone. And from then on I started digging the famous rabbit hole.
Lina Seiche (8:59):
Do you feel any regret at all that in 2011 to hear about Bitcoin? And you know, you didn't buy any?
Anita Posch (9:08):
Yeah, you know even if I had bought some or any or more, I might have lost it or something like that, or I might have spent it you know. I don't regret anything. It's life. It is the way it is. And you can only go step by step and new knowledge brings new experiences, and so on. And that's why I got into Bitcoin in 2017. And I think I was still early and we are still early now. So no, no regrets, no regrets.
Lina Seiche (9:46):
That's very healthy. good attitude.
Molly Spiers (9:49):
Wow, that's so cool. So are you a full time Bitcoiner, then?
Anita Posch (9:53):
Yes. And I'm very, very proud of that. And it's great. It's really, really great because I always wanted to achieve that. I mean, I have my coffee here and it says “o what you love.” And that that was always like my message and then someday I realized it's not do what you love, it has to be love what you do, because do what you love would be like, “Okay, I'm doing something professional that I love to do as a hobby, because I like it”, but then you don't have the endurance, you don't have the power to go this marathon because it's, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon. And so I'm really happy and proud that I made that I mean, that I made that possible for myself. And also that switch, you know, from being an internet marketer, I mean, I had lived from that and it worked. And I just said I want to work in this new field. And so I changed that in a long process.
Lina Seiche (11:02):
Wow. I have my coffee here and it says Bitcoin is fuck you money.
Anita Posch (11:06):
Okay, I need one of these too.
Lina Seiche (11:11):
I will ask Bitcoin Meme Hub who made it together with Samson. Oh yeah, what really cool is this.
Molly Spiers (11:22):
I think we have some of those mugs in our office as well. I think Samson has sent us. The guys love them. They're very cool.
Anita Posch (11:28):
Yeah, they're cool. I mean but you can only only use it to reflect people like you and me. I mean, everybody else would be pissed off, maybe
Lina Seiche (11:39):
People are so sensitive.
Anita Posch (11:41):
No, not in the Bitcoin space.
Lina Seiche (11:44):
Fair enough. So when you found Bitcoin, is there work in the Bitcoin space that you feel like that’s, you compared it to the early internet. So it feels like a calling or it feels like this is exactly the space you want to be in right now?
Anita Posch (12:00):
Yeah, exactly. It's not too much of a calling. But more of a combination of all I have done in my life, all of my interests. I mean, when I was 14, I produced my first paper, you know, a fan scene for Duran Duran, and I printed it out on and then I took the magazines and took scissors and put the images and stuff on paper and copied it and something like that. So now I'm a podcaster. You know, I'm doing media online and also my history in e-Commerce. I'm not so much a developer I was more like a project manager, I always had to be able to talk to marketing people as well as to developers. And I think that's a very important knowledge or experience I have for explaining Bitcoin because I have to understand the technicalities and break it down to newbies or beginners or to people interested in it. And I think everything basically came together, also my interest in the economy and economy from people for people you know, that's basically always what I did and what I was interested in nurturing you know, like helping people to start their small business connecting them and all those things and I think that very wonderfully comes together everything in Bitcoin and also the open source thing like the philosophy that affects the system a little bit.
Molly Spiers (13:55):
What I've noticed is that whenever you're talking to some Bitcoiners they always smile when they're talking about Bitcoin and I was just noticing that you Anita when you're talking about it just then like you're smiling and I just think that is so beautiful. That's how Bitcoiners feel about Bitcoin. Yeah, like I'm smiling right now just by talking about it. But sorry, that was just a little side note.
Anita Posch (14:17):
But you're right I mean, it's basically what I want to do and I'm always enthusiastic about talking about it. When I have to explain this, sometimes it happens, of course, that different people ask you the same thing over and over again, you know, the same FUD story the same it uses so much like electricity, it's not backed by anything, but we need a control, whatever, you know, and but all the time I'm explaining that again, I realize how much I love what it does, you know, and that's also great to have this enthusiasm from one Bitcoiner to the next because, as you know, wherever you go around the world, I'm asking first, who is into Bitcoin in this city? Can I meet you? You know? So you also get to know a lot of people and that's great.
Molly Spiers (15:15):
I don’t think the Bitcoin community is as toxic as it makes out to the world, it's actually really happy and enthusiastic people.
Anita Posch (15:24):
Yeah, I mean, to be honest, I sometimes just walk around toxic people and not everybody is the same in person as online, you know. It often also, how you write things down is different than how you would say it in person. And yeah, I mean, too much toxicity is also too much for me. I don't like it. I don't like to push newbies away from space because of rude Bitcoiners. I think that's not good. But in general, you're right. Bitcoiners are very nice people.
Molly Spiers (16:08):
Yeah, exactly. Cool. So you talk then just about it being your life. So we actually talked about it on the podcast that we've not yet released, but soon coming out about this sort of work-life balance with Bitcoin. And how do you switch off from your work? With Bitcoin being 365 days, 24/7, what do you do to unwind?
Anita Posch (16:36):
Yeah, it's hard. Because when you're so enthusiastic about something, you don't want to miss anything. But yeah, of course, as a solopreneur, if I take a day off, or do a holiday, then nobody works anymore, you know. So that puts me a little bit into a stressful situation. But I've learned to live with it. And what I do is I play a lot of sports, like I'm, I'm cycling a lot, I'm swimming almost every day, if I can make it and also a part of Team Satoshi. We did like two years ago, we did the Satoshi Freeathlon, where we cycled, ran and swam from Zurich to Munich. And now in October, we are taking the road to Bitcoin. It goes from Italy to Munich again. And all Bitcoiners are invited to join us on that. They can do a relay stage. So sports, a lot of sports, then, of course, meeting with friends and trying to have some time for me like to think about things and to calm down the mind, you know, but basically, most things are doing sports.
Molly Spiers (17:56):
You said friends there, are all your friends Bitcoiners as well or not? Yeah, you haven’t orange-pilled them?
Anita Posch (18:00):
No. I’ve orange-pilled a lot of people, and I'm always trying to, but not in how shall I say it? If they have any questions about it I'm answering but I'm not pushing it on them. I think I lost some friends on the road, you know?
Molly Spiers (18:22):
Anita Posch (18:23):
Yeah, exactly. It happens. And yeah, I mean, my goal is to orange-pill, at least my closest friends, mostly female friends, because I really think that it's important or it will be very positive for them in the future.
Lina Seiche (18:39):
So your book is called a book called “Learn Bitcoin” and the “L” is in brackets so learn slash earn Bitcoin. Oh, you have it there. That is some epic cover. That is amazing.
Anita Posch (18:53):
Yeah. Thank you very much. Yes, that cover was made by Sovereign’s designer. So the Sovereign sponsored my work, which was very great, because now we can also translate it to German. I will do that apparently. To Spanish, to Chinese and Russian which is great. And so the title which is learn and earn Bitcoin says exactly what I'm doing, like I'm giving all the information you need around the why of Bitcoin so why should you even use it, you know, or why should you learn about it. And in the second part of the book, it's more like a practical guide with a staircase to self sovereignty because that's my goal in the book to lead people up to the stage where they have their own coins, or keys, sorry. Their keys and the coins. So I have a lot of advice on that and it's basically really built up in a way that at first you learn the basics and then you learn step by step, how to come from No Coiner or Pre-Coiner to a Bitcoiner.
Lina Seiche (20:19):
Molly Spiers (20:20):
So is that the target people for your book then? Like Pre-Coiners and No Coiners?
Anita Posch (20:24):
Exactly. So Pre-Coiners like the people who thought about Bitcoin, so I'm not sure if I want to, I don't know all the arguments. So I'm giving pros, the positive side of Bitcoin and I also show all the FUD stories or arguments that one might have that prevent her or him from using Bitcoin. And I'm also talking about those. And so yes, it's basically feared users and Pre-Coiners, who might already have some Bitcoin, but they have it on a centralized exchange. And so I'm trying to get them to use a self hosted wallet, a hardware wallet, and, and, and use Bitcoin in this self sovereign way.
Molly Spiers (21:17):
That's incredibly important as well, I mean, I work at CoinCorner, which is a centralized exchange, and we do encourage users to withdraw and host or hold their own Bitcoins for themselves. It can be difficult, I think, because it's another part of Bitcoin isn't it, but that you have to understand, and buying them on an exchange and just leaving them there is easy and great and whatever. But the real important part of that is self -holding, which is so important.
Anita Posch (21:50):
Exactly. And I also give some reasons why it's important, because many people don't understand what the difference is. And I explained that only with you having the keys, so nobody can take it away from you. It's uncensor Rubble, and you're also, you know, there cannot be new financial products built upon your Bitcoin. So there's no rehypothecation possible and things like that. And you also can, like, you have more, how shall I say, not power, but you know what I mean, in Europe Bitcoin user then and you have a voice, basically, in the consensus, you know, and what happens with Bitcoin,
Lina Seiche (22:32):
A way that I found very easy to understand why it's important to own your money to have it and not just hold it on a centralized exchange, is that your bank only lets you withdraw so much money every day at an ATM or whatever, they only let you send so much money before they start asking weird questions. Or say, you know, we don't want to do that, or whatever. And that's really annoying. And that is just the status quo around the world. We're not even talking about countries where you run into some really terrible situations where the banks just don't service people anymore, or what you're seeing right now, really, unfortunately, in Afghanistan, where people are running to the banks trying to get their money, and they're being told, well, the bank's not in service right now. Sorry, come back another day. So it's, I found this comparison, very helpful. And understanding why you want to hold your money, you want to hold your keys yourself. You want to hold your coins in your own wallet. And I think once you do that, once you get over the fear of losing your keys, although I don't think you ever really get over it, but once you learn to live with it. You don't go back.
Molly Spiers (23:58):
Yeah, I mean, this is the whole point of Bitcoin isn't it is to be your own bank, essentially.
Anita Posch (24:03):
Yeah, exactly. And, and those that you were referring to now Lina, like in Afghanistan, the situation that's happening all over the world all the time, you know, like in Cyprus, we headed 2013. in Zimbabwe, it has happened so many times to the people there. So the banking services are not really working there. That's the general situation. But sometimes the government just decides to change the account currency like people have US dollars in their bank accounts and from one day to the other the Zimbabwean government or let's say, dictatorship says, so now it's converted into our new Zimbabwean dollar. So basically from one day to the other, they extract all the value from you and you only have those Zimbabwean dollars that lose value every day and so yes, holding the key protects you from these sorts of bailouts and things like that.
Lina Seiche (25:05):
What do you think is a barrier to people understanding this because I suppose to Bitcoiners like ourselves, this seems like common sense. We see things happening around the world and we understand that the only thing that's between, you know, Molly, or ourselves in Europe or in the Western world, or anywhere, really the only thing that's between us and a situation like that is a switch in government, to an authoritarian leadership. And we feel so foolishly safe from that, but it can happen so quickly. So what do you think is the barrier to people seeing this and realizing this, and then understanding Okay, wait, my money is not mine, my money is not saved in the bank.
Anita Posch (25:59):
It's the same. It's education. I mean, we don't learn that it's education. And we're used to it. Yesterday, it was the 50th anniversary of Nixon, breaking the gold standard, with rendering the US dollar to a fiat money currency that's not backed by anything anymore. And most people who have asked weren't born back then. So we only know the Fiat system. And we only know of a system that works with banks, which is a great difference between our western world and like African nations, or less developed countries in the world where banks do not work like here, and where billions of people also don't have access to a bank because they don't have an ID. And these are all things that we don't think about and coming back to the thing with with the banks, I think we never learn in school, how money is created, what it is, who's in charge of it, or why does anybody have to be in charge of it, you know, and we also don't learn how to save, how to have healthy finances at home, like with your own spendings or if you run a company you have to learn that all by yourself. And I think many people also just trust the government and they want a bank to be in control because they are educated that way. I learned it the same way you bring your money to the bank and then you get interest. And funnily enough, I never really saved because I mean, even back then 20, 30 years ago when I could have done it. I thought but with these like 1%, 2% interest rates, does that help? And now with Bitcoin, I found a solution to this problem of inflation because that's basically eating your gains away. So now when we have zero interest rates in Germany, or even negative interest rates, it's even worse. So Bitcoin is basically the only solution to that problem at the moment, or you buy property like a house. But who has so much money to do that? Less and less people have.
Lina Seiche (28:29):
You can buy a fraction of a house.
Anita Posch (28:30):
Lina Seiche (28:35):
When I was nine, I think. So I had a bank account and I lost my bank card. It was like my first bank account. And I was so ashamed that I didn't tell my parents and I found the bank card again, a few years later, I think I was 14 or something. And I checked out the bank account and I had it on like a savings account, and I had like 24 Euros or something and I had earned 50 cents in interest. And I was so proud. I still remember that.
Molly Spiers (29:09):
Wow, yeah, that's awful, isn't it?
Lina Seiche (29:11):
Molly Spiers (29:13):
It is so bad. But like you say it I mean, you just don't get taught this stuff at school. I knew nothing about money. Well, I realized I knew nothing about money until working in Bitcoin and actually I don't know whether the right phrase is unlearning everything you know about money or learning everything you know about money is. I don’t know which one it is. But yeah, it just opened your eyes and I think unfortunately, like you say a lot of people do just trust the government and go along with it because it's all they've known. Maybe the upcoming generation are a little bit more savvy. I think they are realizing that they're not getting interest in their bank account. So that's why you have to challenge your banks, and they're kind of like a stepping stone I think between traditional finance and like new finance, like Bitcoin, but certainly for my parents generation, like older this is like the monetary system has all that they've known and they struggle, I think to get their head around this concept of Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies.
Anita Posch (30:19):
Yes, exactly. And I think that younger people, they are coming from a completely different direction. They have been living with the internet since they were born and it's completely common to them to maybe send value over the internet, like in gaming, for instance, and things like that. And as you say, I agree with these new banks that are only online. I mean, back in the days, I had to go into town and I couldn't send money over the internet in any form. So I think for the older generation, like me, for most people, it's really incomprehensible how something like Bitcoin can have any value, you know? So, yes, I think it's a generational thing. And young people, I mean, a baby born yesterday or something like that will never walk into a banking office or something, you know.
Molly Spiers (31:29):
That's it. I've got a little boy and he's four and he can recognize the Bitcoin logo, maybe because I talk about it too I don’t know. But he knows Bitcoin, but he doesn't know banking logos. And I just think that's the way the next generation will go is that they will know Bitcoin.
Anita Posch (31:49):
His first “bad word”, he will learn shit coins, I guess.
Molly Spiers (31:55):
Yeah, it probably will be actually
Lina Seiche (31:58):
Probably already did. So Anita, you're a Bitcoin educator. And your job is educating people on Bitcoin. But on your way there because it is a steep learning curve you have with Bitcoin, right? Are there any people that helped you with that either directly or indirectly, you know, by reading a book that you've read, or, you know, some other way?
Anita Posch (32:27):
So yeah, I think my main influence has been Andreas Antonopoulos. I started watching his videos in 2017, and he's also a lecturer or tutor at the University of Nicosia, which offers a free digital currency, MOOC, an open online course for everyone. So it's free and it's great. And I did that. And then of course, my colleagues at Bitcoin Austria, which is our non-governmental organization here in Austria, educating people, and organizing meetups and stuff like that. And then yes, I had 125 guests on my show. So basically, all those guests were my teachers, and which is a great idea why to host the podcast. And yeah, so that's basically it. And I learned a lot since I was luckily one of the translators of the “Internet Of Money”, the first two volumes to German. And then of course, I learned a lot. And then writing my own book is basically learning. Yeah, so these are, I guess, I mean, there are a lot of people like Nick Carter, Lynne Elden, Caitlyn Long, Jameson Lopp. Those kinds of people who are also very present on Twitter are my daily teachers, I would say.
Lina Seiche (34:04):
That's the thing. You don't stop learning in this space. You always learn something new, like your brain just doesn't stop learning things.
Anita Posch (34:13):
Exactly. And I forgot to mention Adam Back of course, who also had a great influence on what I understand.
Lina Seiche (34:25):
Where can people get your book?
Anita Posch (34:27):
Oh, the best is you go to learnbitcoin.link because there you can find all the information about the book. You can buy it as an eBook for Bitcoin or lightning. And it also gives you the links to Amazon, Barnes and Noble and basically, you should be able to buy it in bookstores too.
Molly Spiers (34:47):
That's cool. We'll put links in the show notes and everything as well.
Anita Posch (34:50):
Thank you very much.
Lina Seiche (34:51):
We live in a time where you can buy Bitcoin books at the bookstore.
Molly Spiers (34:55):
Amazing, isn’t it?
Lina Seiche (34:58):
I’m just interested. Do you see a difference in how German speakers react to Bitcoin or to your educational content and, you know, people outside of the German speaking realm? That's just my personal interest at a German.
Anita Posch (35:18):
I can generally say that I think Germans are more reluctant to use Bitcoin than Austrians. Austrians are a little bit more open to it. But in general, the difference is bigger between Western countries or developed countries and not so well developed countries, because people there understand immediately when you tell them about the fact that Bitcoin cannot be inflation, it cannot be censored, you can send it everywhere in the world for really a small fee. And it's fast. And these are all things that those people don't know. I mean, and so I always have the feeling that German speakers in general are more like, I don't know, I trust my government more. I'm scared about what happens and who's paying the taxes then. And in underdeveloped countries people are, show me how it works, I want to use it, you know. My interview partner from Zimbabwe, my friend Aura, for instance, she used it for her school to like we send donations to her, I made a donation campaign for her and we sent a Bitcoin over, and she was able to open up the school again, where she's the headmistress of, but then she also started to use it for herself, of course, I mean, if something works, you use it. And now she's sending Bitcoin to Kenya to a freelancer whom she's working with her parents on. And I was asking her recently, and have you sold your Bitcoin? Because it went down like 30%? And she said, “No, I mean, I trust that it goes up again”. And I find that's so great, you know, and the attitude. People are also much more experimental, they need to, because they have to hustle every day to find the money to pay their rent, and all the other things, you know, so there is much more innovation, and I try new things, I want to try new things that can help me in these countries than here in the Western world.
Lina Seiche (37:34):
I agree. 100%.
Molly Spiers (37:36):
I think that, depending on where you are in the world, whether you're in a developed or non developed country, Bitcoin is different things to different people. So like you're saying, with the non developed countries, it is first and foremost a currency to them, you know, and whereas I think maybe in the Western world, it's viewed more as a stored value and people are buying Bitcoin because they want to. They see it as an investment. But I find that fascinating that Bitcoin is one thing, but it's just different things to different people, depending on where you are in the world.
Anita Posch (38:13):
Exactly. Yeah, I see that too. It's more, it's a tool for them. And often, they also have to exchange it into their national currency, because they need the national currency there. So they don't have the disposable income that we have, they can't save. I mean, if they are lucky, they are able to spare some sets and wait for them to increase. But most of the time it's a tool to get money from abroad, like remittances to them, or back to other people in African countries are the same in South America, I guess?
Lina Seiche (38:51):
Well, it's great that you're, you know, taking your time making your job to educate about Bitcoin. I think, you know, we can't have enough of that, because different people respond to different messages, respond to different tones to different types of content. And first of all, I think it's impressive that you were able to build this up for yourself, you know, you're a full-time Bitcoiner, you work in Bitcoin full time, and you spend that time creating educational content. And that's just you know.
Molly Spiers (39:30):
Anita Posch (39:31):
Yeah, thank you. Thank you very much. And I think the important thing for people also to know is, Bitcoin doesn't pay you. I mean, there's no marketing department in Bitcoin, compared to other let's say Altcoins. So I think everyone who is in this space, working for Bitcoin because of their own personal interest, is like how do you say a chop of love or something like that?
Lina Seiche (40:08):
Yeah. We're not paid shills.
Anita Posch (40:09):
Molly Spiers (40:11):
We do this because we love it.
Anita Posch (40:12):
And, the value is rising. I mean, okay. I mean, come on. No, I mean, basically I'm in for the philosophy and for the fact that everyone in the world should have equal access to money. But I can't deny that I'm not having fun. Why I'm not like seeing the value rise and die. Well, nice. Yeah. Nice for everyone.
Lina Seiche (40:41):
I think that that’s perfectly legitimate. It’s part of Bitcoin's design. If there was no monetary incentive. We would not be where we are right now.
Anita Posch (40:49):
Lina Seiche (40:50):
That’s what is so beautiful about Bitcoin. It aligns our human incentives with this massive progress it brings to our planet. That’s why it works. It is beautiful.
Molly Spiers (41:09):
So Anita, what’s next for you? What are you working on next?
Anita Posch (41:12):
Yeah, thanks for asking, so I’m starting my podcast again because I took a break for two months because I published a book and was travelling. In September, I am starting again and I am also translating the book as I said. I am translating it to German. Other people from Sovereign’s team translated it to other languages. And then book marketing so I stay in the loop and I try to reach as many people as possible. So that’s what is next.
Lina Seiche (41:48):
That’s exciting all the best with that.
Molly Spiers (41:51):
Anita Posch (41:52):
Thank you very much. I need it. I need support.
Lina Seiche (41:59):
Support Anita everybody. In the meantime, where can people find you if they want to support you?
Anita Posch (42:06):
So as I said before the book is at learnbitcoin.link. My podcast is called “The Anita Posch Show." You can find it in any podcast player and I’m on Twitter @anitaposch.
Lina Seiche (42:21):
Awesome. Great, thank you so much for coming on to the SatoSHE show Anita.
Molly Spiers (42:29):
Thank you for being our first guest.
Anita Posch (42:31):
Thank you Molly, thank you Lina, thank you Mir in absence, for inviting me. And for the honor to be the first guest of the SatoSHE show.
Lina Seiche (42:43):
We hope we did okay.
Anita Posch (42:44):
Oh, it was great!
Lina Seiche (42:48):
Thank you so much!
Anita Posch (42:50):
Lina Spiers (42:51):
See you soon.
Anita Posch (42:52):
Bye. Thanks. Bye!
As much as we love Bitcoin and working in the Bitcoin space, we do need a break from the FUD and the markets every now and then. In this episode, we chat about how we accomplish that (all of us except for Lina, that is), and we're also reviewing a Forbes article that had us scratching our heads: "To Invest in Carbon-Neutral Bitcoin Mining Is to Invest in Women" ......?
Enjoy the episode, and don't forget to let us know what you'd like to see in the future!
Molly Spiers (0:09):
What's up guys, welcome to another episode of The SatoSHE show with me, Molly, and my co-hosts, Lina and Mir. Before we begin a quick shout out to our sponsors, SatoSHE design and CoinCorner. Thanks for your support guys. Keeping that short and sweet and on with the show. Hi, girls, how are we?
Mir Liponi (0:29):
Very fine. Thank you.
Molly Spiers (0:32):
Yay, we're back. What is new, what's been going on?
Mir Liponi (0:35):
Well, I just came back from the beach, so I'm very happy and relaxed. Life was almost as normal, but it won't be in some days here in Italy. So I'm enjoying every single, single moment of it right now.
Molly Spiers (0:51):
That's nice. Where did you go? To the beach?
Mir Liponi (0:54):
Yeah, I went to Liguria, which is a very nice area of Italy. And the funny thing is, you get the sea and you get a lot of carbs. So it was very difficult to resist. But I did my best.
Molly Spiers (1:13):
Nice. Lina, how are you? Are you okay?
Lina Seiche (1:17):
Yeah, I'm doing great. I've been doing lots of things. Going to the cinema, going to restaurants, traveling the world, living life. Of course not, I'm just sitting at home.
Molly Spiers (1:29):
I thought when you said traveling the world I realized that was. As soon as she said traveling the world I was like, “Hmm okay, that doesn't sound right.”, you had me at the cinema and going out to restaurants, but no, that's not the case. It's mad because where I live here in the Isle of Man. Like all that stuff is open to us to like the cinema and the restaurants. I forget that other people around the world. Don't have like, that's not available.
Lina Seiche (1:55):
Molly Spiers (1:56):
Yeah, pretty much don't have freedom.
Lina Seiche (2:00):
I have you girls, that's all I need.
Mir Liponi (2:02):
Molly Spiers (2:03):
Exactly. Good, good.
Lina Seiche (2:07):
How have you been?
Molly Spiers (2:08):
Good. So what have I been up to? Oh, yeah. On the subject of freedom. My mom actually came over this weekend. So she lives in mainland UK and she came over. It's the first time I've seen her in about two years because of lockdowns and everything. So she came to visit, and it was just really nice. She just came for the weekend and we just went out. I don't want to rub this in your faces. We went out for nice food and nice little walks and it was just really good to see her. So I've come back this week feeling very upbeat and positive because it's just, it's just nice, isn't it? Like two years is a long time.
Mir Liponi (2:51):
It is. I saw the picture of you and your son on Twitter and your mother. You were amazing.
Molly Spiers (3:01):
But my mom is actually a Bitcoiner as well.
Mir Liponi (3:03):
That’s great. Oh my god.
Lina Seiche (3:06):
Lina Seiche (3:07):
Thank you. She's supposed to because of you.
Molly Spiers (3:11):
Yeah, it's actually very interesting, so my mom has actually been into Bitcoin. She invested a long time ago when I first joined CoinCorner actually. She nearly knew as much as we are.
Mir Liponi (3:25):
Okay, now we understand where you got your good Bitcoin genes.
Molly Spiers (3:31):
Exactly. Exactly. So she is a Bitcoiner only as well. So that's really great.
Lina Seiche (3:37):
This is the way.
Molly Spiers (3:41):
The tweet you're referring to is me, my mom and my son. And I think I captioned it like three generations of Bitcoiners because we are. That's what we are.
Mir Liponi (3:50):
That’s so cool.
Lina Seiche (3:52):
It's the dream.
Mir Liponi (3:56):
Yeah, it is.
Molly Spiers (3:57):
So it was really nice, and one of the things I wanted to talk to you girls about today is that time away from the “Bitcoin chaos” that is. So this is actually what I was thinking about over the weekend when I was spending time with my mom, is that with Bitcoin being 365 days, 24/7 full of news every day with developments every day it can be a lot. And I think whether you're working in Bitcoin or whether you are just sort of like involved from an investment perspective, regardless, it could be very consuming. And it's not often that I actually take the time away from my phone, away from Twitter, away from what's going on, and have that breather, which is what I did this weekend and it was weird, but it felt good. I don't know, I'm curious. Mir I know that you obviously were away down the beach.
Mir Liponi (5:00):
Yeah, I clearly remember some years ago, I tweeted something like an unpopular opinion about I am looking forward to the day I won't think about Bitcoin. Of course, I love Bitcoin, but what I intended was something like Bitcoin will be something normal, and it will work. And we are not thinking about the internet all day long, we are just using the internet, all the people are using the internet. This is my idea for the future, but at the moment, of course, we cannot rest too much, so I have to find my balance. And it took me some years because I had problems sleeping because I wanted to know all the news, what was going on, what I was missing. The problem was real. So I had to manage these and find a way especially since I got my daughter. And at the moment, I feel like I'm balanced because every day there are moments without a phone, without Bitcoin. And it's okay, because, of course, Bitcoin doesn't need me and that's great. I didn't need to be updated all the time and so I managed to have many hours without being updated. And sometimes, even days, I just like at the beach, just enjoying the beach, because in the end we are doing this because we want freedom. I mean that that's the goal. We don't have to forget what's our goal in life to enjoy our life. I know it's very early and we feel the responsibility for our job. So for Bitcoin itself to just, I mean help Bitcoin in any possible ways, but we have to slow down Bitcoin is amazing because it's going it's just working without us. And that's great. That's the amazing thing about Bitcoin. Not easy, not easy to realize that, but it's always on Bitcoin, but we don’t have to be on all the time. Yeah.
Molly Spiers (7:19):
Yeah, I feel like I'm not at that stage just yet. Lina, I don't know. How do you feel about it?
Lina Seiche (7:30):
Well, first of all, I think if you're stressed by the price you have too much exposure in relation to your conviction. So if the market stresses you you have too much money in Bitcoin. You can have all your money in Bitcoin and not be stressed, but you need a lot of conviction for that. So if you're stressed, you should either learn more about Bitcoin or, you know, reduce your exposure. But generally, it's really hard to break away from Bitcoin just like for me at least, it's really hard to break away from the internet, just because and I'm pretty sure you can relate our work just centers around the internet, we're always online. And the same way. We're always available, it's more of an overall issue and it's more work-related than Bitcoin-related, but because I work in Bitcoin, that's just how it is for me. And I've noticed this too, like when I'm eating and I have my I don't have my phone on silent and I get a message. I feel a little bit of stress, like ”Oh, man, somebody wants something from me.” and I don't like it. So I set my phone on silent, but it's vibrating, so it's not doing anything, so that's not good advice. In general. I have no good advice for this. I’m not good at working away from Bitcoin.
Molly Spiers (9:01):
Well, the worst thing is I'm like I'm such a hypocrite, so I get major FOMO. I don't know if you girls got the same, but on my phone you can see how much screen time you have spent on your phone and I think whether it was last week, or maybe the week before Twitter was like my top used app. It was ridiculous. It's something like 10 hours in a week, which for me is very high. Like you’ve said, I find working in the industry even when the price is going sideways, it may not be as different for you Lina, but the price isn't the problem. I don't think it is the amount of stuff that is happening all the time. If it's not the price, it's new developments, you know, technological advancements or whatever that's getting picked up. It's chaos. That's Twitter. It's just so many things I feed in. And I don't know, for me, I have one hour a day, after I'm done at work, and I go home and have my dinner and I usually go out and do some form of exercise, whether it's a walk or a workout. And in that time, I try not to look at my phone, I don't respond to messages. I don't look at emails -- nothing. And I mean, I know it's only an hour out of my day, and it seems very small compared to the rest of it but for me, that really helps. Because even now my sleep is interrupted, like, I'll wake up in the middle of the night, just for whatever reason, and it sounds awful, but the first thing I will do is check my phone and see what's going on. Because, you know, Lina, you're over in Asia, Mir you are here in Europe with me, but then you have America and Bitcoin is always doing something, somewhere. So it doesn't matter when you sleep. Bitcoin is not sleeping.
Lina Seiche (11:00):
That's true. That's true. Also, there's a lot of stuff happening in North America with Bitcoin right now. So that means when my day ends, they wake up. So my time, like my sleeping schedule has shifted to actually kind of like your times. So that I can keep up with everything.
Mir Liponi (11:21):
If I may have something I shifted a perspective, it is just like something. I don't know, most of the news, most of the stuff is just useless in the end. So the most important things are going to emerge anyway, so I just wait. And I've learned just to wait some days because there is a lot of noise too in the Bitcoin space too, so the signal to emerge we have to wait for it. I'm not telling you that I'm such a yogi because I get FOMO all the time. But in the end this perspective really helped me. I really recommend everyone to think about that. It seriously helps.
Molly Spiers (12:16):
I really like your approach.
Lina Seiche (12:21):
Maybe also just got to consciously take some time off. Allocating time, just away and that's actually not just for you know if you're working with Bitcoin as with any job I feel is. Especially for freelance work it is a great thing to do. I recently bought a PlayStation. I got a PS5.
Mir Liponi (12:40):
Oh my gosh.
Molly Spiers (12:41):
Lina Seiche (12:42):
I’m so proud of that.
Mir Liponi (12:43):
Lina Seiche (12:44):
I just had to bring it up.
Mir Liponi (12:46):
Well in the end you realized that there is a state of mind, I think it's called a wandering mind. It is a mode where you play, where you are just walking, and your mind is empty. And you feel you're not being productive and actually you're not being busy at that moment. In the long term, your productivity is going to increase in the right way because you are more satisfied and your mind is emptier but in a good way. Because if you have to focus on this stuff that really matters, you want to have another responsive mind so I'm totally in favour of playing video games. It seems it is a way to deal with everything and if it's not, you're going to have a great time. So it's a win.
Molly Spiers (13:36):
Yeah, I think you have to find your little breakout thing, don't you? Whether it's PlayStation, whether it's exercise. It could be anything just to take that time away from you know, in our case, Bitcoin and then focus on something different because the break really does like you say, it really does benefit you in the long run. It makes you more productive if you have that little break.
Mir Liponi (14:03):
Lina Seiche (14:04):
I think patience in the case of Bitcoin is important because we receive a lot of nonsense come out every day and a lot of what we do and we talked about this in our last episode is we defend, you know, when we defend Bitcoin, not that it needs it, right, but we dispel FUD and we debunk nonsense and I personally tend to find that very stressful when I see the same Bitcoiner is of the same level of argument for the 200th time and I feel like why didn't you just put in the work and do the research before saying or writing this thing. So I tend to find that very stressful and I think what we have to do is just also sometimes take a step back and see the bigger picture and understand that these narratives are short-lived and a few years from now we're gonna look back and we're gonna think, “Man, so glad this is over.” Hopefully it doesn't come back, although I think it will. Yeah,
Mir Liponi (15:08):
It will come back in other forms, probably.
Lina Seiche (15:12):
Yeah like that Senator who said Bitcoin miners are moving away from China because China wants to plant them in other countries so that it can then destroy their financial systems from the inside out.
Molly Spiers (15:25):
I mean that's a bold statement, isn't it as well? Like, what sort of clickbait headline is that? It's mad.
Lina Seiche (15:32):
You can make a lot of headlines.
Molly Spiers (15:35):
This kind of leads nicely on to our next subject, actually. Lina, do you want to talk about this? Because this was the article that you kind of sent around to us to discuss.
Lina Seiche (15:45):
Yeah, yeah. I got really angry at that, so I wanted you to get angry too.
Mir Liponi (15:52):
Thank you. Thank you.
Lina Seiche (15:57):
I saw it on Twitter, somebody posted the screenshot from a Forbes article, Forbes women actually. “To invest in Carbon Neutral Bitcoin Mining Is To Invest In Women”. So I want us to take a look at the article.
Mir Liponi (16:12):
Well, my first thought. Sorry.
Lina Seiche (16:16):
What's your first thought? I want to know.
Mir Liponi (16:18)
Yeah, my first thought was like, this was generated by a bot because it's too stupid for being generated by human beings. Just like that, and I'm going to ignore it. But thanks to you, I read it today. And after the first sentence, I just wanted to just throw away my computer from the window, but that's okay. Because it doesn't make any sense at all. I just read half of the article, but I wasn't happy about that. But it was impossible to continue.
Lina Seiche (16:55):
You are welcome. More stress for you today. But, you know, I want to look at it because the headline sounds really stupid. And I wanted to understand if the article is also stupid, or if it's just a stupid clickbait headline. The article is maybe not that bad. Don't spoil the surprise Mir. So I want us to review the article and you know, maybe see what we think about it. And we can start right with the first sentence of it, which is: “In 2016. Bitcoin was irrefutably a man's domain.”
Molly Spiers (17:36):
Mir Liponi (17:38):
Lina Seiche (17:39):
I can add a second section, ”At the time, only 1.76% of the Bitcoin community consisted of women with male counterparts made up and 98.24%.”
Mir Liponi (17:52):
First being irrefutably. So you got the number from Coin Dance, and CoinDesk. Got the number from Google Analytics, so it's just a fair estimation that we don't know about because essentially there are plenty of set anonymous accounts and people that don't want to disclose their gender or whatever. Even if the data is right, I mean, Bitcoin doesn't care. But that's not a good motivation, but also very stupid to start with that, because I clearly remember 2016, probably, I was the only woman during the meetup. And it's kind of possible that those are good data, but we don't know. It's not irrefutably. So, starting with that, it's just bullshit.
Lina Seiche (18:56):
I feel like it's setting up a narrative. So what I always wonder with these things is, how do you know? Right? So where do you get that data? As you say, maybe they get it from a Google Analytics estimate, or they get it from surveys or something, but then, you know, what's the sample size? Is it representative? And also, how do you check the answers? Can you even check? Cause if somebody was gonna ask me, “Do you own Bitcoin?” I'm gonna say no.
Mir Liponi (19:24):
Lina Seiche (19:25):
With just the truth.
Molly Spiers (19:27):
I lost it in a voting accident.
Lina Seiche (19:33):
Yeah, stern votes.
Molly Spiers (19:35):
No, I think you're right. I think like what you say about sample size. I mean, I don't know if you girls have ever seen, like tv adverts. I'm thinking of the ones mainly for makeup, but it's like 80% of the participants agreed that this, this and this. And then it says in tiny, tiny little writing at the bottom that they asked maybe like 12 people, so it's not an accurate, I'm trying to think of what the word is. The right word to say.
Lina Seiche (20:12)
Molly Spiers (20:13)
Exactly. That's the word I'm looking for.
Mir Liponi (20:14):
Also, if you think about it, what does community mean? I mean, community is just the intersection of businesses and users so community is such a broad term for the sample. Doesn't mean anything.
Lina Seiche (20:31):
Yeah. If you ask the police, they're going to tell you there's no Bitcoin community.
Mir Liponi (20:37):
Yeah, absolutely. For example.
Lina Seiche (20:42):
Well, okay, let's go on. So, now we're getting to the core hypothesis of the article.
Mir Liponi (20:48):
This is painful.
Lina Seiche (20:50):
That's why we're here Mir. “As more women enter the crypto space, the need for environmentally conscious Bitcoin mining practices is growing.” Now, here's why.
Molly Spiers (21:02)
Okay, yeah, cause my question is going to be why?
Lina Seiche (21:05):
Exactly. So here's why. “The current production is currently estimated to generate between 22 and 22.9 million metric metric tons of Carbon Dioxide emissions a year. That's about the same as country ABC which, you know, again, like, where'd you get the data? We don't know that for sure.
Mir Liponi (21:24):
They are comparing the Coin Dense data with other data and saying that about 40% of women are now participating. But actually, if they compare it with Coin Dense today, it's 14%. So they are not even able to compare the correct data with themselves, and so basically, I stopped going on with the article.
Lina Seiche (21:52):
Honestly, any article that says Bitcoin has this and this much CO2 that blows into the air, how did you find out? Because you don’t. You just don't know there's no, well there is, what do they call themselves Task Force Council. There is a council now. But we're not at the point where they're like auditing anything. And even then they would just be reporting from a small number of miners, right? So where did she get that data? So I checked out the hyperlink, she linked to a Reuters article from May 13. That estimated that Bitcoin has 22 million metric tons of Carbon Dioxide a year, which was before the China ban. So not only is it a questionably vague estimate, it's also outdated.
Mir Liponi (22:48):
Yeah, it's outdated. And also, Bitcoin mining is great, because it's based on incentives. So miners have all the incentives to maximize what they are doing. If renewable types of energy are better for them, they're going to do that. And they are already doing that since the China ban, for example. So saying that older women are going to benefit for something that I don't know if it's so helpful, and we want them. I don't know, it's such a strong statement, and in the end it's not even updated yet. There are plenty of problems.
Lina Seiche (23:39):
Well, the key foundation that I want to lay here is that she didn't do a very thorough research here, in my opinion. Now, you know, where the women come in, I can say a little less about that. So here's what she brings in the women. So Bitcoin, let's, let's say it's true, 22 million megatons of CO2 a year. And as she writes, it's no secret that climate change impacts women more. It's no secret that climate change impacts women more than men, which is quite a statement.
Molly Spiers (24:16):
Well, here's the thing if it's no secret, like, I didn't know that, so it was a secret to me.
Lina Seiche (24:25):
Yeah I looked it up.
Mir Liponi (24:26):
Yeah. Yeah. Still a secret to me.
Lina Seiche (24:29):
I looked it up because I didn't want to say something stupid that can get me cancelled. And I ound out there's actually a lot of research into the topic. Wow. It has its own Wikipedia article, climate change and gender or gender and climate change. So apparently, in certain areas of the world, women are sort of the caretaker of the house and the family so they stay at home and they're in charge of going out to look for food and you know, making sure there's fire in the house. While the men go to the cities and do the work and bring home the money now, where climate change comes in is it destroys the environment in which these women live. And the women then have to move somewhere else if I understood that correctly, which means they get displaced. And during this process of getting displaced and having to find a new place to live, they are more vulnerable to first of all, that sucks. And then also, they're more vulnerable to any dangers or risks involved with that process, which is terrible. And I don't know enough about it to, you know, say anything about that. It sounds really bad. So there's that. The question now, is it a bit far fetched to connect Bitcoin mining to that? It’s a question.
Mir Liponi (26:02):
Molly Spiers (26:03):
My personal opinion is it's just another thing that Bitcoin can be blamed for. I don't know why this whole thing is like, I appreciate how it talks about impacting women more than men, but I really don't think this article needs to, the headline for this does not need to be around women. Like the focus does not need to be on women. Yes, the mining side of Bitcoin needs to sort of look at more renewable energy resources. But I feel like what you're saying, this feels like clutching at straws, is my impression.
Lina Seiche (26:45):
Well, if you don't even have data to back up the CO2 emissions, right, and all you have is vague estimates. And even with those estimates, it is still far less concerning to the world's environment than let's say, the banking system, or gold mining or, you know, other sources of CO2 emissions. Why would you not take those?
Molly Spiers (27:09):
No, here’s the thing. A couple of guys who I work with actually looked into the carbon dioxide, carbon emissions of Bitcoin and compared it to other things. I'm like, you know, we're saying it's all estimates, but Bitcoin has this bad reputation, I think, for destroying the Earth and all these carbon emissions that it gives off. They compared it to things like, I can't remember, I'm paraphrasing, I can't remember the exact numbers, but it was things like drinking a glass of orange juice, and how many carbon emissions that produces. And simple things like sending an email, and, you know, don't quote me on this, but I think sending an email was comparable to sending like to making 4000 or 400,000 Bitcoin lightning transactions, like in terms of output? I will find the article to link to after this.
Lina Seiche (28:13)
Will insert it here.
Molly Spiers (28:15)
Yeah, right there. Yeah but it's just frustrating.
Mir Liponi (28:20):
I just like them, they have a lot of assumptions. And they are putting the assumption all together to claim the title. But if we go into the reasoning and go over every single step, it doesn't make a lot of sense. So it's only for people who are just reading the title and seeing that the journalist makes up some data and then they end up thinking about that. But if you go from sentence to sentence there are plenty of things there that don't make sense by themselves. I mean, also about the impact of Bitcoin mining, and also the idea of climate change. And I don't want to go full depth because I guess before I was probably. But the problem is just the structure of these articles is just always or almost always like that. And it takes a lot of time to debunk those and more time than actually writing an article just like that. And they know.
Lina Seiche (29:33):
Yeah, it's going very far out there to draw a connection. And you can see it in other parts of the article too. Like she says, as more women enter the crypto space the need for, I’m sorry, that was wrong. She's saying, “It just so happens that some of the region's hit hardest by natural disasters, drought and displacement are experiencing significant growth in women working in crypto.” So again, I tried to understand that claim and I looked at her reasoning, or her examples. So what she then used is an anecdote of a woman in Iran who encourages more women to dive into cryptocurrency. Then she says in Lebanon there are people increasingly turning to crypto as a means of gaining financial freedom through crypto remittances, probably all Bitcoin, but you know whatever. Which is where I wonder, okay, so there's one anecdotal woman that she talks about, then she talks about people in Lebanon, is that women? Or is that again 98% men? Like, which of it, Is it like, she makes some kind of weird claims here. Then she mentions Europe, where she says 1/5 of crypto holders are women where, you know, okay, so in Europe, I don't think women are disproportionately affected by climate change as much as in some other parts of the world.
Mir Liponi (31:05):
Also, where do you get the data from exchanges? I mean, how do you know those are holders, if they are old LLC, you are not supposed to know they are orders unless they pass through an exchange, and then they stopped moving their Bitcoins and you get to the gender from the exchange? So I mean, those are orders, but I mean, it's more complicated than that, because those are not KYC free Bitcoins or not the same thing. And also, it's not, I mean, it has been years since I heard so many ideas from the crypto space and on how to use cryptocurrencies, businesses to save the world, but actually, it's not that complicated. In the end, they seem just like another story or something that is actually quite easy. Just use Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is great in that, and it can give you as a woman too one of the best figures of art, which is independence, financial independence, so you will only have to, I mean, learn about the technology and to buy Bitcoin in the right way. And you are already set up and free. So it's not that complicated, actually.
Lina Seiche 32:33
Yeah. Well, you know, honestly I feel like the article has good intentions. And she's saying, “If you're an investor looking at ways to support clean energy and women consider funding clean energy Bitcoin mining.”, so you know, I'm all for supporting environmentally friendly Bitcoin mining, whatever that means to you, right? If you want to plug your miner into a hydro power plant, good for you. So the article, I think, has good intentions, but unfortunately, it's just drowned out by this virtue signaling that women suffer because men mine dirty Bitcoin. It's really sad.
Molly Spiers (33:23):
Yeah, I agree. I think there's too much going on in this article to make sense. Is the problem with women? Or is the problem with Bitcoin mining? And like what you're saying about mining? I mean, I'm not sure if there's any way to actually and that I could be wrong if there's any way to actually prove that you mined Bitcoins using renewable energy at the moment, unless you, you know, put the message in the transaction in the block? Like, how can you prove that?
Lina Seiche (33:57):
You would have to physically go to the company and audit them and check. Are they connected to a hydro power plant? Or do they have a coal power plant in their basement? There is no way. So people both No Coiners and Bitcoiners like to take numbers from reports and surveys and use them as the only source of truth and I do not think that's correct. I think we have to be very careful with throwing around these numbers, be it number of Bitcoin users, demographics, Bitcoin mining emissions, or whatnot, but the thing is, that stuff takes a lot of research. And you have to look into things and most people don't have the time nor the motivation to do that. So it's very easy to look at a number instead.
Mir Liponi (34:48):
I was expecting an article about more male Bitcoiners emitting more CO2 than women or something like that. Wouldn't it make more sense?
Lina Seiche (35:03):
Mir Liponi (35:04):
I don't know, I'm thinking of something I cannot say. But actually, if you can give perspective, it could be. Yeah, it is an argument like the one inside the article, I'm not as gracious as you Lina because probably it's too much time I am wasting reading articles. But right now I am at this point. And yeah, my argument is seriously better than the one in the article. Well, I completely agree and also, if you take a minority, and then decide that that this minority is, I mean, you can come out with anything if you want to, because, of course, if you take a minority majority one is going to be disadvantaged in comparison to the other it just like our life's work, we have to take it in serious consideration when there is something more consistent and more important that I don't think that's the case. But if this is the case, I'm totally open to reconsider it in the future. But at this point, it's, it's not
Molly Spiers (36:15):
Cool. Well, I think that's all we've got in that article. Is there anything else to add?
Lina Seiche (36:23):
Molly Spiers (36:24):
Lina Seiche (36:25):
Molly Spiers (36:26):
Lina Seiche (36:27):
No more comments.
Molly Spiers (36:29):
Right. That's good. Shall we wrap it up there then?
Mir Liponi (36:32):
Lina Seiche (36:35):
Sure. We never talked about how we wrap stuff up?
Molly Spiers (36:39):
No, that's true, isn't it? I think we, what do you call it?
Lina Seiche (36:43):
Molly Spiers (36:44):
Bye everyone. I said no, actually, we did. Did we on the last one?
Lina Seiche (36:50):
Well, okay, first of all, please like and subscribe.
Molly Spiers (36:56):
Have you done it the right way around?
Lina Seiche (36:57):
Like here. Like. Subscribe. Visit our channel. Check out our social media links. Go to our Twitter and follow.
Molly Spiers (37:15):
I can see the concentration in your face. That's all right. It’s for the editor to do, isn't it?
Lina Seiche (37:23):
Oh, yeah. The editor has a lot of work.
Mir Liponi (37:25):
I can tell him in Italian with some gestures. <Italian> So you have to subscribe right now.
Molly Spiers (37:36):
I love that. You do it in German.
Mir Liponi (37:43):
Oh my God, I'm convinced. I’m convinced.
Molly Spiers (37:48):
Oh my God, that’s brilliant. I'll just do it in the very, what do you call it, the very modest British, being like, please like and subscribe. Oh, we're not angry.
Lina Seiche (37:58):
We should have all our bases covered. Any type of audience that could have possibly followed us. Follow us now.
Molly Spiers (38:07):
That's good. So that's it. We're done.
Lina Seiche (38:11):
That was great.
Molly Spiers (38:12):
Yeah, we enjoyed it.
Lina Seiche (38:13):
Talk to you soon.
Molly Spiers (38:16):
Lina Seiche (38:16):
Welcome to the first episode of the SatoSHE Show!
SatoSHE is the first all-female Bitcoin-only show, hosted by Molly Spiers, Mir Liponi, and Lina Seiche. On this show, we give you our unsolicited views on the latest in Bitcoin as it evolves into the backbone of a new financial system. We chat about the news that moves the industry, the questions that keep us busy, and the people that change the world, and we may also invite other bitcoiners over for a cup of tea and a casual chat every now and then.
In this first episode, we chat about why we thought the world needed another podcast, why we went with "SatoSHE," and we test the waters with our first Bitcoin-specific conversation on Bitcoin advertising. Bitcoin ads are a contentious topic, and many Bitcoin companies have stories to tell about their struggles to get Bitcoin-related ads approved on social media platforms and real-life billboards. Yet some altcoins seem to have cracked the code of getting ads approved.
What's going on with that, and does Bitcoin even need advertising?
Watch the full episode below or listen on Anchor!
We're a podcast, we talk about Bitcoin, and we're all girls. What else do you want?
Molly Spiers (0:10):
What's up guys! Welcome to the first ever episode of The SatoSHE show sponsored by SatoSHE design and CoinCorner. I'm Molly and I'm joined today by my beautiful co-hosts, Lina and Mir. Hello Wayfields.
Lina Seiche (0:22):
We are fine.
Molly Spiers (0:23):
Hi. In this episode, we will be introducing ourselves, the show and we also have a couple of Bitcoin topics to talk about. So let's get to it. Right guys, we're going to introduce ourselves, so Lina, do you want to go first? Who are you? What do you do?
Lina Seiche (0:42):
I'm Lina, I am the managing director of the BTC times, the best Bitcoin news site, and now I'm part of the best Bitcoin podcast.
Molly Spiers (0:55):
Cool. So how did you discover Bitcoin?
Lina Seiche (1:00):
That's not a very great story, actually.
Molly Spiers (1:05):
Lina Seiche (1:07):
All right. Um, I discovered Bitcoin through shit coins. I'm gonna get canceled.
Molly Spiers (1:16):
It's okay, I think we've all had experience with shit coins over the years, but as long as you've learned, and, you know, as long as you're a full-fledged Bitcoiner now that's all that matters.
Lina Seiche (1:26):
Oh, yeah, I'm not going back there. I'm a child of the 2017 generation, so I joined early during that hype season. And the first half year or so that I was in space, I had nothing to do with Bitcoin because I came into the space through shit coins. And you know, shit coiners don't like to talk about Bitcoin. So really, the first time that I would hear about Bitcoin was when I was at a meetup, and somebody would do a presentation and say, so you've heard about Bitcoin? And Bitcoin is like this old dinosaur tech, and here I have this new coin that does all these things better than Bitcoin. That was kind of the first time I heard about Bitcoin, and it took me about a year and a half to realize that shit coins are not the answer. They're not solving anything. And that there's bigger things to worry about, and that Bitcoin fixes them. So my journey is not very glorious, but now I'm here. Your stories are way better.
Molly Spiers (2:43):
Well then Mir do you want to tell us, well, first of all, who you are, what you do, and how did you get into Bitcoin?
Mir Liponi (2:49):
Wow. That's a tough question. I’m Italian, it is impossible to hear, but I'm Italian, I know. And I basically shit posts on Twitter about Bitcoin and Cypherpunks ideals, privacy and all these amazing, important stuff all day long. But from time to time, I do, I mean important stuff too just like, helping the BHB Network, helping the Milan Bitcoin Meetup. And I've been around for some years. And yeah, I do other stuff, too. I'm a vocal coach. And I've been a vocal coach, even before Bitcoin and I'm also a communication consultant as you can hear from my perfect speaking, yes. And yes, I love Italian food and I have a very small project on Instagram about polymath and multipotentiality because I love random topics. And I love to discover anything and I'm a very curious person. Yes, I’m also, that's very important, the mom of a ScamBot, which is a very important bot on Twitter.
Molly Spiers (4:10):
I never knew that, really?
Mir Liponi (4:12)
Molly Spiers (4:14):
Wow. That’s cool.
Mir Liponi (4:16):
Molly Spiers (4:18)
So how did you discover Bitcoin, Mir?
Mir Liponi (4:21):
Well, that's been two phases of love because the first time I heard about Bitcoin, I kinda loved the idea. But, yeah, I told Giacomo, you have to do some stuff with that because I was doing my PhD. So I was very busy, and please, Giacomo, quit your job and do something with this Bitcoin because it is perfect for you. I mean, it is politics, it is technology, it is ethics, it is anything you love. And yeah, so basically continued with my life and then at some point I started to go to the meetups, and I clearly remember one moment in New York. I was there for my PhD research and I met many people talking about Bitcoin, the lightning network, it was at an early stage. And I didn't understand a word of that. And not only because of the technology, but also because I didn't speak English at the time, but I was fascinated by the passion and the few things I understood at the time. And I decided I want to be part of that. That's amazing. And actually, my story was all about Bitcoin maximalism from the beginning, but I was only lucky because I met the right people just after I decided to be involved in Bitcoin. So yes, I have to say thanks to all the people that are helping me learn about Bitcoin. And they had a lot of patience.
Lina Seiche (6:02):
Wait, so you are the reason Giacamo is a Bitcoiner?
Mir Liponi (6:05):
Well, he found Bitcoin by himself, but actually, I'm the reason why he decided to quit his previous job as a consultant. Yes.
Lina Seiche (6:18):
Mir Liponi (6:20):
Well, it was clear to me that it was perfect for him and the rest is history. But the funny thing is, I wasn't convinced for myself, because I was doing other stuff, and I wanted to focus on them. And for that Bitcoin was for people just like Giacomo, and now I think that Bitcoin is for normal people like me.
Molly Spiers (6:47)
Bitcoin is for everyone.
Mir Liponi (6:48):
Yeah, absolutely. Except for one.
Molly Spiers (6:55):
Now, that's really cool. So you've never gone down the road of shit coins?
Mir Liponi (6:59):
No, I've been very lucky because I asked many questions at the beginning because of course, I didn't understand all these maximalism all around Bitcoin. And I was like maybe you are too exaggerated, and then I came to the conclusion that Bitcoin is just common sense. And it is better to focus on Bitcoin, which is better for any stuff. And it is the best by design and for its price over time, and so many, many, many other things. But it took me some time but in the meanwhile, I trusted my sources, and then I verified by myself. What about you, Molly?
Molly Spiers (7:43):
What about me? Okay, wow. So I'm trying to think where my story begins. My story begins, when. So at the moment, I'm Head of Marketing and Communications at CoinCorner. Prior to this, I was in a marketing role for a local hospitality company, so I like hotels and events. I think I was just looking for something a bit different. I was kind of, I'd been in that role for a year and a half straight from uni into that role. And as much as I love local marketing, I was just, it gets a bit stale. So I put the feelers out to have a little look to see what other marketing roles were available. And so this was 2014 and CoinCorner, were advertising a marketing role, and at this point, the company was only like 6 months old. I think. No, even a couple of months old, sorry, because I joined when they were six months old. So I went for the interview. Had no idea what Bitcoin was, had never ever heard of it, and especially back in 2014 there was, I mean, you struggle to, there was no information really. You don't have all the resources and all the information that's available these days about Bitcoin. So I went to the interview, and was just straight up honest. And I was like, guys, I've never heard of Bitcoin before, but it is from what I've read, which is very little, I was like, it sounds really cool. But I'm very passionate about marketing and what you guys are trying to achieve, I'm down for that. So yeah, then I got offered the job. Had to wait a little bit because they were still trying to get it up and going. So I joined the company after six months, and then the rest is history. I'm still here six years later.
Molly Spiers (9:54):
I don’t feel like an OG some of the time there. I don't know. I don't know if you both feel the same but Bitcoin, the industry changes so fast, And every day, there's new products, services, you know, developments, and a lot of the time I said, I have no idea what's going on. I know Bitcoin and that's that. But when you hear, I don't know, I'm not a techie. So things like taproot you know, all that stuff I hear the guys at work talking about and I kind of wish I could understand these things. But even now, like for me six years, six and a half years in I'm still learning every single day.
Lina Seiche (10:37)
Yeah, maybe a disclaimer at this point. If you're watching this to get technical insight into the functionalities of Bitcoin, I'm very sorry to disappoint you, but you're not getting it from me. I'm not sure about you, girls.
Molly Spiers (10:53):
No, absolutely, not.
Mir Liponi (6:59):
No, I can pretend to understand stuff. I've been doing this since here. But actually, I can understand that those are important topics, and who are the people we're talking about, the topic, and they are building stuff great for Bitcoin, yes that's my understanding.
Molly Spiers (11:15):
Okay, if we ever decide to do a topic on that, like the technical stuff, we'll bring someone in. They can explain it to us. Cool, I guess that kind of leads us on to I want to ask you girls, because the SatoSHE show was you girls came up with the idea and then invited me to be a host, which I'm so grateful for. But yeah, just explain. What is SatoSHE? Like, what, what do we expect to achieve from it?
Lina Seiche (11:47):
So last year, I was helping out the magical crypto podcast with Charlie Lee with Panda Samson. Fluffy Pony. So I was helping out at that podcast, it was going really well. Unfortunately, they didn't have time to keep it up. So they ended the show and after they recorded their last episode, Samson told me he was thinking of doing a new podcast, he was just not sure yet who to do it with. So I said, “Why not with me? You know, we could do it together.”, he said, “Nah, I don’t want to do it with you.” So I thought, okay, then I'll do my own. So I was thinking about a good way to do it, and I realized there's not a lot of female podcasts that focus only on Bitcoin. In fact, I couldn't find any. If I'm wrong, please tell me. But so I thought, Okay, why not? Why not do that? You know, and I was certainly not going to do it alone, because I don't have that much experience doing it. So I reached out to Mir and Mir was totally down. And then we reached out to you, Molly, and you were totally down and then things happened. I could tell you about the name, SatoSHE. SatoSHE. How do we pronounce it? I don't know. We should probably decide that. SatoSHE.
Molly Spiers (13:25):
SatoSHE. Sounds good.
Lina Seiche (13:26):
Mir Liponi (13:27):
Well, we can go for SatoSHE, which sounds very Italian.
Molly Spiers (13:31):
That is very Italian.
Lina Seiche (13:32):
Mir Liponi (13:35):
Molly Spiers (13:36):
With the hand. With the hand.
Lina Seiche (13:43):
Yeah, I was thinking of a name. Again, I was talking to Samson about it. And he said something about you know, why not call it SatoSHE is a girl or something like that. And I thought oh, SatoSHE.
Molly Spiers (13:57):
Honestly, when you guys showed me the name and the branding. I was like, that's amazing. I think it is clever.
Mir Liponi (14:04):
Yeah. super short, and you understand what we are going to do. Yeah, I love it.
Lina Seiche (14:11):
What are we going to do? We have podcasts. We talk about Bitcoin. We are all girls.
Mir Liponi (14:16):
Yeah, that's everything we need in the end because we all share...
Lina Seiche (14:20):
What else do you want?
Mir Liponi (14:25):
We share all the love for Bitcoin, and we love to chat about it. We love to talk about some more important topics around Bitcoin. And I think that that's all we need at this point, and I really like the idea that the show will change and grow with people. I mean, the audience will tell us a little bit of our week and we can move things on and also I like the idea of an all female podcast because I think it is interesting that we can give a female perspective on the topic. It's probably the first time. So let's see what happens.
Lina Seiche (15:11):
It might be.
Mir Liponi (15:12):
Lina Seiche (15:13):
A little less toxic than. No actually, I don't know. Maybe not.
Molly Spiers (15:18):
No, we're not that toxic. I don't think so.
Mir Liponi (15:22):
Well, yeah. I mean, it really depends on what the toxicity means. I mean, if toxicity means that we are tough on the important stuff, I think I'm toxic. But if you think that toxicity means that you are a horrible person, I don't think we are. Really, it really depends. Okay, I think that if we're telling ourselves that we are toxic, it works. If it is from outside, sometimes it is just, it is not a compliment really depends. But I'm okay with being toxic, if needed.
Lina Seiche (16:07):
Molly Spiers (16:12):
Yeah, one of the things that I just wanted to mention is that, like we obviously said the audience will help us drive this podcast. So if anyone has suggestions, we're looking to bring on guests in the future. So we always welcome guest suggestions, topic suggestions, anything like that, we are open to everything.
Lina Seiche (16:32):
So in terms of what we're going to be providing, or the content that we're going to be putting out there. I think we will be, you know, a few things as Molly mentioned, we might want to have guests on, but we also just want to talk about what's happening, you know, give our own view of things. Maybe the female perspective can be useful. Also, because all three of us have a marketing background, I think that is primarily the view that you're going to get from us. So if that's something that you are interested in, then you know, you are very welcome to hang around. If not, then please still hang around. Because we need viewers.
Molly Spiers (17:17):
It's bad for you. It's bad for you.
Mir Liponi (17:20):
It's going to be an Italian course for you if you are not going to watch, endorse and help us. Yeah, that's a very bad course. Yeah.
Lina Seiche (17:30):
You better stay.
Mir Liponi (17:31):
You better stay.
Lina Seiche (17:32):
Mir’s eyes just now.
Molly Spiers (17:34):
Yeah, I feel like I need to stay.
Lina Seiche (17:39):
I am scared to leave now.
Molly Spiers (17:45):
Cool, then on. So from that, then the marketing side. Actually one of the topics that I wanted to raise today and kind of get your girl's opinion on it was Bitcoin marketing in general. So this week for me at work has been a nightmare. I don't know if you guys have seen but the FSA, which is the Financial can't remember what the C is but Authority.
Lina Seiche (18:13):
Financial Conduct Authority.
Molly Spiers (18:16):
Girl, even you know, I was thinking I don’t know they don’t want to go down that road, the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK, they are launching an 11 million pound campaign, basically warning of crypto risks. That's not helpful. Because here in the UK, I have more than enough barriers when it comes to trying to market Bitcoin products and services and this is not a new thing. This has been my entire time at CoinCorner. I don't know if you girls remember. But back in 2018, Google Ads was banned. There was a blanket ban on crypto advertising for Google Ads, which impacted us heavily because we used to get a lot of new customers from Google Ads. And I know that they are reintroducing that in Japan. I think Japan has allowed it back. And I think the US is next but there's no, I haven't heard anything about the UK. And yeah, like we've had advertising pulled from transport advertising in the UK a couple years ago, the day before it was supposed to go live. And I had an advert turned down this week for radio advertising because the ASA, which is the Advertising Standards Agency in the UK, is also cracking down on crypto advertising. And yeah, another one which I've not come out yet and said anything about -- the Reddit. Reddit banned us as well. Reddit refused us advertising this week. Unless we are willing to spend a lot of money which we don't have.
Lina Seiche (19:55):
They don’t want it. They don't want your money.
Molly Spiers (19:57):
They do want my money, but they were not a lot of money. So they will exit. I can't remember what the actual wording was, but basically, cryptocurrency advertising falls under financial services. But you can only advertise on Reddit if you're willing to spend X amount in a certain time period. And I don't have that marketing budget to do so. Unfortunately, the companies that do have that marketing budget to do so are typically ICOs and scams, which then I don't know if you girls feel the same, but it just leads back into this cycle of barriers to crypto advertising because of these companies. But these companies are the ones that can afford to spend the money, which then gives the bad reputation to Bitcoin marketing in general, and for legitimate businesses like us at CoinCorner and I'm sure other businesses around the world. So, that’s my little vent.
Lina Seiche (21:01):
The Financial Conduct Authority, right. So what they did is they say, we don't want any more misleading crypto advertising, right? So there was this. I’d be interested to know what ad you were gonna submit. But there was this Luno ad, right in the subway, or whatever? I forgot what exactly it said, but something like if you're seeing Bitcoin in the subway, it is time to buy and they said, that's misleading, because it doesn't highlight the risk that comes from it. So Molly actually shared a Financial Times article with us, prior to the podcast I read it, I found it very interesting. There's a section here that says the Financial Conduct Authority has issued warnings that consumers buying popular crypto products should be prepared to lose all their money. But those have failed to filter through to most consumers. It is great, because, you know, if the Financial Conduct Authority is telling me to do something, I will definitely listen to that. But the point being, there is a big focus on misleading, right? So it doesn't want misleading advertising. So I'm wondering what misleading means, right? For example, you had in London, just recently, you had these HEX advertisements on taxis. Right. Now, if you saw that, but they painted the taxis. They said something like up 10,000% in x days, or HEX is up 10,000% since day x or whatever. So I'm wondering, is that misleading? Because if it actually, if they pumped it that hard, then it is factually correct. So is it misleading to put that on a car? Would it be misleading to put up a Bitcoin ad tomorrow saying Bitcoin is up 10x since 2020 because that's true.
Molly Spiers (23:00):
It's true. It is a fact.
Lina Seiche (23:05):
Are you able to share what ad CoinCorner was going to put up?
Molly Spiers (23:09):
Oh, so this, are you talking about the transport advertising?
LIna Seiche (23:13):
Molly Spiers (23:14):
Yeah. So this was actually, this wasn't recent. This was in 2018. We were going to put up on the trains in the UK. Inside the carriages, we had a campaign called “Be more Brenda”, and our sort of approach behind it was based on an actual customer of ours who was elderly, and was very switched on. And our approach was like, if she can do it, anyone can do it. Like Bitcoin is easy. It is not as difficult as everybody thinks it is. So we had all the artwork done, we had it all printed, and we were working with a third party advertising agency. And, yeah, the day before it was due to go on, I can't even remember how many, a lot of trains. They pulled it because they said it, I can't even remember the wording, whether it was misleading or whether it was something else at the time. But then we went and put those posters up on the undergrounds in London, because it was a different provider, and they were fine with it. So we had these big like, don’t know what size, huge, huge posters. Be more Brenda they were bright orange. They were amazing. They actually got a lot of people talking about them, because they were so they stood out. They were incredible. But yeah, that also came with a lot of criticism from people, against you know. Here in the UK, I don't know if it is the same way with you guys, but anything that you put out in terms of advertising you can't put out anything that is deemed investment advice. So these ads that you're talking about with Luno, where it says, “If you're seeing this ad, it is time to buy”, I saw those ads, and I was like, that's investment advice. And how it got through and approved, I have no idea, but the long term damage that has done to other companies in the space as a result of that is a little bit frustrating.
Lina Seiche (25:24):
You think that like HEX or just, you know, obviously a scam. And now I'm going to get, you know, probably shitstorm from shitcoiners, but do you think they were able to put up that ad because they didn't put a Call To Action? They just put this: “Oh, we have so many percent since this day.”, and then you know, think the rest, you know.
Molly Spiers (25:44):
Yeah, I mean, potentially, I mean, so whenever we do advertising here, in the UK, you have to put the disclaimers in the bottom, you know, like for so obviously we don't advertise HEX or anything like that, any shit coins. But with Bitcoin, we always have to have a disclaimer in the button, the regulatory stuff that says, you know, the price of bitcoin can go up and down risks involved, blah, blah, blah. I can't remember whether those disclaimers were on that HEX ad. And yeah, there's so many different parties involved with the advertising. Like I said before, you've got the ASA, which is the Advertising Standards Agency who were like the governing body for these adverts. But they didn't get I don't think they get involved until something was brought to their attention like the Luno ads. I don't know if the HEX ads have been brought to their attention. So sort of underneath them. There's these independent advertising agencies that are working with these companies. And if they deemed it, fine, then it goes out. So clearly, whoever HEX were working with deemed it factually incorrect and you know, not misleading. Yeah. And it is difficult.
Lina Seiche (26:57):
Yeah. What I found interesting is, so I looked into this topic a bit further. There's a BBC article on the same topic, which says the ASA, so that Advertising something something okay. The watchdog said it says here. The watchdog said the simplicity of the it is time to buy statement gave the impression that Bitcoin investment was straightforward and accessible. We understood, and this is a quote from the ASA, we understood that Bitcoin investment was complex, volatile and could expose investors to losses, that's still contrast to the ad. So the reason they're giving is not that it is misleading. The reason they're giving is you are making it seem like it is easy to buy bitcoin, but actually, it is really hard. So that’s the reason they gave.
Molly Spiers (27:50):
Yeah, like I honestly don't think anybody really knows like outside of the companies that are advertising. I don't think that these advertising agencies know what the rules are. It varies so much.
Lina Seiche (28:07):
I think anybody knows. No, I mean, no, you're trying to get an ad approved, and it is not working out for you. So I'm wondering, you know, if there was an ad saying Bitcoin is up 10x, since 2020, and you know, we wanted to put it on a bus in London, would it get approved? Or would they say, nah, this is misleading, even though it is a factual statement? Like, is the problem having the Bitcoin logo on there because they don't want to see Bitcoin? Or is it actually as they say, they just don't want you to think, want you to make people think that it is the guaranteed returns or whatever?
Mir Liponi (28:48):
It seems that. I’m sorry.
Molly Spiers (28:51):
No, go on, Mir.
Mir Liponi (28:53):
No, the only thing I want to add, it is kind of trivial, but this is what happens when everything is centralized, and there are some associations and governments behind it because they can control what you can do and you feel protected. But actually, in the end, we cannot even predict what they are going to do. Because at the beginning Bitcoin was something unknown, so it is better to stop consumers and now Bitcoin is against something and now Bitcoin is risky and in the future will be. We don't know. The only thing we know is that it will always be tricky because it is not completely in our power, but we have to deal with it if we want to, of course, have Bitcoin be focused businesses.
Molly Spiers (29:49):
I think I don't know how you feel about this Lina, but because I know that your media publication is a Bitcoin publication, but media in general, are not Bitcoin friendly. I think that a lot of the stuff that comes out, unfortunately, is quite weird, quite heavily, quite negatively towards Bitcoin. So all this, you know, these comments around advertising and, you know, try to highlight these crypto risks. I feel like there's just so much mixed messaging, because you have, you know, companies like ourselves trying to advertise Bitcoin in a positive way. But then at the same time, you have these media publications coming out mainstream media, sorry, publications coming out, very kind of like negative stories around Bitcoin, and it just feels like a constant battle with the Bitcoin industry as a whole versus the world, essentially.
Lina Seiche (30:00):
There is a strong tendency towards highlighting the criticism of Bitcoin as opposed to the praise, because praise of Bitcoin, in whatever shape or form is often regarded as, as you said, investment advice. When it comes to media coverage, especially mainstream media, I think the problem they have is there's not enough Bitcoin expertise out there. It is part of the problem. So there are not a lot of people who understand Bitcoin, you know. Among those people, there's not a lot of people that can write. And then among those people who understand Bitcoin and can write, there's not a lot of people that can write in a journalistic way. And among those people that understand Bitcoin, can write and can write as a journalist it is not a lot of people that actually work in that profession. You see where I'm going with this, right?
Mir Liponi (31:44):
Lina Seiche (31:45):
People that do, they tend to work, maybe they work at, you know, CoinDesk, Cointelegraph, or other crypto publications, or they're freelancers, or whatever. Few of them are employed by mainstream media outlets. And that the result or the consequence of that, is that these mainstream media often have, they realized, oh wait, people are talking about Bitcoin, so we have to cover it too. So they give the topic or they assign a Bitcoin story to the closest person. Like the person closest to what they think can write about it, for example, a person usually covering stocks or covering finance markets, or economics. And these people will usually come from a different background, and you can't expect them to, you know, within like, what's the turnaround time, like 12, 24 or 48 hours to learn about Bitcoin. So what they will do very often is they will Google it, and they will see a past article that's not very well informed, and then they will say “Oh, bitcoins, carbon footprint is so high”. Okay. Well, you know, we all care about climate change right now. So this is a great thing to pick up and this is going to get us the clicks. So it is like a vicious cycle of misinformation that gets out there. And I don't want to, you know, demonize every single journalist out there. There's some really good journalists out there. But there's a lack of understanding. And unfortunately, you know, it still gets out there. And then you have to deal with it. And also, the effect of that, because, like the government and the Financial Conduct Authority, the people that work there, they also read that stuff, and then they think Bitcoin is dead, so let's put up this new regulation that bans Bitcoin ads.
Mir Liponi (33:46):
Yeah. And can I be a little bit toxic?
Lina Seiche (33:50):
Mir Liponi (33:51):
I agree with everything you said Lina, but probably it was more for them. First year of Bitcoin, I see the lack of understanding for them, in most cases. Actually, it is either you are kinda ignorant, because there is so much stuff out there, and or you are in some way guilty because it happened to me. During some interviews, I spent a lot of time speaking about Bitcoin and given all the resources to watch and they asked me questions, for example, last time about Bitcoin and energy consumption, blah, blah, blah, blah. Bitcoin is bad for energy, and I link it and explain everything quite efficiently because it was in Italian. And in the end, the article was nothing about what I was talking about. In my harsh words, they didn't do the research. I know sometimes it is a matter of time, you don't have time. But actually, you had everything. If you didn't want to go to the resources, you have the time to listen to my answer because it was just like explaining it to, as I would explain to my mama probably. And so sometimes there is an agenda, and if they decide to go with that agenda nothing will change their minds.
Lina Seiche (35:33):
And yeah, unfortunately. It happens a lot.
Molly Spiers (35:37):
That's a problem and the unfortunate negative stories about Bitcoin are the ones that get the clicks. And then the other ones, obviously, the more clicks the more words, yeah. Nobody wants to read a story about how great Bitcoin is, do they? They want to hear about how it is destroying the world. And, you know.
Lina Seiche (35:55):
Well, do you want to read about taproot? Like, oh, well, you maybe do, but imagine you are. That’s a bad example. Alright, imagine your friends who are not Bitcoiners, imagine they see an article about how taproot improves Bitcoin’s privacy, or efficiency or, you know, even lightning network use cases, Imagine they see that headline, they are not going to click on it. Now they like,
Mir Liponi (36:23):
They prefer being salty. I told you so, that Bitcoin was a scam, it is dangerous or whatever you are right click baits are just in this direction. And call me, I mean, I'm naive, but I can see a future when the titles will change and will show all the amazing things that Bitcoin will do, or otherwise, they're going to be more independent publications and silver rain publications. I don't know, just dreaming.
Lina Seiche (36:55):
There's this thing that I was never aware of when you're growing up in Germany, until I started traveling and met people from different countries. I saw that in some countries, and especially in the US, you have media outlets that are clearly leading towards a political direction or party or whatnot. And there is a very clear bias. If you see for example, you want to read news about Trump. If you go to Fox News, if you go to CNN, you'll see the same news but packaged very differently. Yeah, so for me, the more I saw that the more I realized, wait so if you read an article, you can't just take it at face value you have to read you know other articles on the same topic or you go to Twitter, you know, to then form your own opinion on you know, some well, or better informed grounds. But then can we ask that of people that want to learn about Bitcoin? Probably not.
Molly Spiers (37:59):
Probably not actually. Because if they do go to Twitter, they're just gonna see shitposting and memes on me.
Lina Seiche (38:05):
I have a question. Do you think we need Bitcoin banner ads on, you know, buses and taxis and billboards? And maybe even you know, Facebook and Twitter? Do we need these banner ads? Or are they not necessary? Will Bitcoin get to the end game? Whatever you may think that is, without them as well? Or will it accelerate it? Or is it actually even bad for Bitcoin?
Molly Spiers (38:36):
Mir, do you have any thoughts on that?
Mir Liponi (38:39):
You asked for too many photos that I tried to condense. So let's start with saying that I tolerate marketing actually because I'm the kind of person that I see marketing and communication as two very different things. And at the same time, I think it is very important to market stuff with ethics and they are very important for businesses. Since Bitcoin is not a business, Bitcoin is just what Bitcoin is. Bitcoin is a strange creator on the internet, and it is a currency. I don't know, I still don't know. But see, many people are convinced that Bitcoin doesn't need any marketing, because Bitcoin is just it is and it will eventually win without our output in any way. But at the same time, I think that if we can help Bitcoin, there is a great way to do that. So, in the end, I tolerate and try to help Bitcoin in many ways, and I think that Bitcoin companies should do what they do. They are doing business, so advertising is a very important part of that, otherwise, we won’t know that their services exist and also they are reaching potential new clients, potential new people. If we're talking about Bitcoin all the time, on the same platform it is not that useful. There are some problems of course, because we see ii is kind of exposing too much the topics about I think it's the impact could be positive in the end. At the same time I think that I mean, there are positive ways in which we can do marketing for Bitcoin. I mean, the problem is also that not only that we associate Bitcoin and marketing in a bad way, because, I mean, we think Bitcoin doesn't need any marketing. But I do think that sometimes something is rooted in its historical roots because, for example, all the people who were doing marketing, especially in the ICOs season, were just like people, they had only marketing, they didn't have anything else. And basically, in the most positive scenario we're trying to sell you nothing. In the worst, they are proclaiming it fraud. So, with time we associated marketing with a bad thing, because I mean, Bitcoin doesn't need marketing, the others are doing marketing. So marketing is bad. But in hand, it's not so easy, but the steel nowadays, many people are just seeing marketing as bad stuff for Bitcoin internally because all these people pumped up, or trying to sell their products, trying to sell the white papers, and the stupid coins or whatever. But I mean, we should tolerate marketing and use it for our goals. And one of the best ways, in my opinion, to do marketing for Bitcoin is through propaganda. What we are doing, the laser eyes for example, it's just like propaganda for Bitcoin, a good one. We are showing ourselves as stronger and entering the community, the message is clear. And those are great things and also bloggers are great for people internally and externally. I mean, it's a matter of rhetoric, you know. And rhetoric is important too. We are very focused as Bitcoiners to dialectics and argumentation and argumentation is very important, we should produce articles and talk and speak about very solid argumentation for our topic, especially now that Bitcoin has been attacked in so many different directions and for so different software. And we can argue against them with numbers, with solid arguments. But rhetoric is important too, especially if we are aware of what we are doing. And so in the end, I'm trying to tell you that our shitposting on Twitter or on other platforms is important for Bitcoin in the end, and at the same time, I think advertising outside this platform could be done in an ethical and important and Bitcoin-focused way.
Lina Seiche (43:45):
A lot of the marketing we see for Bitcoin is sort of defensive marketing, because there's a lot of anti-Bitcoin marketing, you know. It goes up to central banks, the European Central Bank attacked Bitcoin in its digital euro announcement, for whatever reason, they must feel very threatened. But because there's these authorities and people and organizations with large platforms attacking Bitcoin, a lot of the things we do, and a lot of the things many Bitcoiners, you see them doing, you see them going on TV to talk about it. I will call it defensive marketing, because it's dispelling FUD, you know.
Molly Spiers (44:26):
Lina Seiche (44:27):
That's a form of marketing too. You know, they go on TV to talk about Bitcoin. You can say, “No, Bitcoin doesn't need that”, but it certainly can't hurt because otherwise you wouldn't have this voice that would, you know, stand up against the misinformation that people maliciously, you can't, you have to say it as it is that people maliciously put out there.
Molly Spiers (44:50):
That's very true. I think it comes back to that saying that I can't remember the exact wording but, “First they laugh at you, then they fight you, then they join you”. I feel like we're very much in this fighting stage at the moment where we're just kind of that, you know, people are putting out FUD. And we're just having to go back and dispel. Dispel because if we don't the general public are going to hear what the central banks are saying, and they're going to take that as gospel, and then never look back to it again. So yeah, it just feels like a constant battle, you don’t think? Great. Well, that is the end of our first episode then girls.
Lina Seiche (45:32)
I hope there’s something useful there. I mean, Mir, for sure you said a lot of great stuff, I hope it's great to listen to as well or at least bearable.
Mir Liponi (45:43)
Well, I hope you guys understand what I said. But if you need any subtitles, let me know.
Lina Seiche (45:54):
It's a very romantic accent, Italian accent.
Mir Liponi (45:57)
I don't know, I don't hear it.
Lina Seiche (45:58):
It's one of the best you can have. Definitely better than the German accent.
Molly Spiers (46:00):
Mir Liponi (46:03):
Actually, I don't hear anything. Well, for the next episode I’ll just enroll into an English pronunciation course and see if something improves, but I don't know. Let me know if during the next episode something will be slightly better. Because we have problems with “h” and “th” sounds all the time. I can’t pronounce some sounds and who cares? People normally understand me or they fake to understand me.
Molly Spiers (46:39):
We love you for who you are, Mir . We love you.
Lina Seiche (46:42):
Yeah, I love whatever you said just now. I agree.
Mir Liponi (46:48):
Let's try it with some gestures next time. And I am really looking forward to the next episode. And I really hope that our audience will love it too.
Lina Seiche (46:59):
We'd love to know. Yeah, we would love to know how to optimize this podcast, you know. So if you have any suggestions like topics you want us to talk about, or the length of the podcast to or you know what guests we should have on here. Please let us know. We're just starting out but probably going to change this up a lot as we go.
Molly Spiers (47:21):
Yeah, I think we planned to do this for half an hour, but I think I've just checked the time when it's like a good hour. So there you go, a bonus long episode for the first one.
Lina Seiche (47:36):
I said a lot of useless stuff. You can cut that out.
Molly Spiers (47:39):
No, it was all good. But yeah, you can find us on Twitter. We have a Twitter account now for the podcast, which is the SatoSHE show just SatoSHE show.
Lina Seiche (47:46):
SatoSHE with an “e”.
Molly Spiers (47:48):
SatoSHE with an “e”.
Lina Seiche (47:49):
Molly Spiers (47:51):
I still love that and it's brilliant. And yeah and then we also have created a couple of Telegram groups as well so you can join us in there and we can talk about some of the topics we've you know talked about today.
Lina Seiche (48:05):
We're going to put it somewhere here.
Molly Spiers (48:06):
Yeah, we'll put it somewhere down in the show notes
Lina Seiche (48:09):
I’m giving the editor some work now.
Molly Spiers (48:14):
Okay cool. So thanks for joining us guys. Thank you so much.
Lina Seiche (48:20):
Don't forget to like and like and subscribe
Mir Liponi (48:32):
And if you want to do a donation since Bitcoin is dead, some salsa is always a good idea or just I mean, this T-shirt is, a tank top actually is very important and share the hashtag.
Lina Seiche (48:48):
Molly, can you share your important message too?
Molly Spiers (48:51):
Drink, drink Coca Cola. No, I don’t even like Coca Cola. I just thought the show was cool. Cool. Thank you very much.